The Fomorians
There are many oblique references to the presence of Black people in ancient Ireland. Ancient Irish mythology refers to the original inhabitants of the island as being a giant, sea-faring people called the Fomorians (Fomors), which means “dark of the sea”. According to the ancient lore, they were a cushitic people from the African continent. Often depicted as demons, they defeated the first few incoming waves of invaders, but could not defeat the Firbolgs, who settled the land and lived side-by-side with the native Fomors.
Those myths may have a factual historical basis. It is proposed that the Formorians were a real people who were in all likelihood sailors from the African continent.
Two more invasions, the first led by the godly Tuatha de Danaan, and the second by the Celtic Milesians, took control of Ireland, mixing together with the Fomorians until they were no more.
There are credible sources for the African association with Ireland. The most likely of these is that they were Phoenicians and/or Egyptians. The Phoenicians were Canaanites, which came from the line of Ham. Ham is the mythological ancestor of the Black nation.
The Phoenicians were also well-known for their sailing skills, and are said to have traveled to the British Isles, which they called the “Tin Islands”. Perhaps, before Ireland was a Celtic domain, which it wasn’t until a few centuries BCE, the Phoenicians colonized it. It is noteworthy that the name Fomorians sounds a bit like Phoenicians.
There is also a legend that an Egyptian princess, Scota, left Egypt with some followers and journeyed to Ireland. Legend has it that Egyptians left many ancient tin mines all over Britain but especially Ireland which was their major source of the valuable metal.
Another idea is that they were Taureg Berbers. The Berber language is Hamitic, and the Berber people live in an area from which travel to Ireland would be easily accessible. The Berbers perhaps set sail from western Morocco, and settled on Ireland before the Celts, making it their new home.
Moorish Science Temple founder Drew Ali teaches that Ireland was once part of a Moorish empire, and that the Irish are a Moorish people. Perhaps there is a common root between the “moor” sound in Fomor and the word Moor?
Selkies and Half-Breeds
Another Irish legend tells of the Selkies, a sort-of “wereseal” that is a seal during day, but a human by nightfall. Sometimes, in an Irish family of fair-skinned, light-haired people, a child is born with dark hair eyes, and skin, and is called a Selkie.
The concept of the Selkies appears to make subliminal reference to the half-breed children that resulted from the extensive miscegenation that occurred between the Celts and the dark skinned original inhabitants that they had met upon their arrival in Ireland.
Many people of Irish descent have distant and recent African roots, and these features can still be seen in the people and in the culture. There are some Irish people with Afros (just like Andre the Giant a late continental European wrestler with afro-hair). In Southern Ireland, some people, referred to as “Black Irish”, are noted for their strikingly dark features, as opposed to the fair-skinned, light-haired north.
Although many Irish descendants are particularly pale, they do have pronounced Africoid facial features, as well as dark brown eyes, and dark brown hair that is sort-of kinky, especially in moist conditions. A sub race of the Irish called the Bronn are noticeably Mediterranean (read: African) in features especially their hair.
In addition to all of this, Celtic music is distinctly different from the rest of Europe, and easily comparable to African music.
Black, Viking and Irish
Unlike Scotland and England, Ireland was never colonized by the Romans. As a result, Ireland remained relatively isolated.
The Vikings established port cities like Dublin. The Viking texts left stories and descriptions of African soldiers captured in Ireland whom they called blaumen[blue-men].
Most Viking references to ”black” in Norse would have signified having black hair as opposed to skin color but blaumen meant black skinned. Most of these blaumen were captured soliders from Moorish Spain. It was observed that:
“A prominent Viking of the eleventh century was Thorhall, who was aboard the ship that carried the early Vikings to the shores of North America. Thorhall was “the huntsman in summer, and in winter the steward of Eric the Red. He was, it is said, a large man, and strong, black, and like a giant, silent, and foul-mouthed in his speech, and always egged on Eric to the worst; he was a bad Christian.””
“Another Viking, more notable than Thorhall, was Earl Thorfinn, “the most distinguished of all the earls in the Islands.” Thorfinn ruled over nine earldoms in Scotland and Ireland, and died at the age of seventy-five. His widow married the king of Scotland. Thorfinn was described as “one of the largest men in point of stature, and ugly, sharp featured, and somewhat tawny, and the most martial looking man… It has been related that he was the foremost of all his men.””
What about Scotland and Wales?
“Any comprehensive account of the African presence in early Europe should include England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Scandinavia. The history and legends of Scotland confirm the existence of “purely Black people.” We see one of them in the person of Kenneth the Niger. During the tenth century Kenneth the Niger ruled over three provinces in the Scottish Highlands.
The historical and literary traditions of Wales reflect similar beliefs. According to Gwyn Jones (perhaps the world’s leading authority on the subject), to the Welsh chroniclers, “The Danes coming in by way of England and the Norwegians by way of Ireland were pretty well all black: Black Gentiles, Black Norsemen, Black Host.””
Ogu Eji Ofo Annu
Sources:
Ancient And Modern Britons, by David Mac Ritchie
Nature Knows No Color-Line, by J.A. Rogers
The Huns were Mongolian, and the Vikings were Germanic, as are the Danes. The Gypsies, or Roma, are from India, as revealed by genetic analysis. Why are these things so hard to understand and accept? But more importantly and more interestingly, why must you lie about it? It reveals a deep insecurity when one feels the need to appropriate another’s identity. Seriously Eleazar, I want to know what you’ve been reading.
And Dagmoon, claiming a Semitic or North African connection to Ireland is less absurd than claiming a black African one, but as for the “Celtic” and European identification, it is appropriate:
1) Stating that the “tall, blond, blue-eyed Celt” of Ireland is a minority and of *Viking* (tell Eleazar that) origin doesn’t negate the contention that the majority of the Irish population trace their ancestry back to the continent. Maybe not necessarily to the Celts, who greatly influenced Irish cultural identity, but yes, back to the continent. The people of Ireland are genetically most closely related to other Western Europeans of Britain and of the continent.
2) The Celts did arrive fairly late in Ireland, but surely no one argues that the Celts are all that Ireland is. The pre-Celtic inhabitants of Ireland are acknowledged and I’ve never known of anyone to claim that the Celts are the “sole identifying culture of Ireland”.
3) This alleged linguistic connection between Old Irish and Old Hebrew has never been confirmed. Ireland, even if it does have an undeniable connection to the Semitic people, is still indeed more closely related to other areas of Europe, linguistically and culturally and genetically, than to any place outside Europe. Ireland just hasn’t seen as much shifting as has the continent, but older European cultures were very different from that of Ireland.
4) Okay
5) Yes, the Phoenicians did arrive in Britain and Ireland (as well as in the North Sea), didn’t they; but can you explain any specific influence they had on the natives?
6) Okay, you’re talking about later continental European music (Classical), not traditional, which is still around and is similar to the music of Ireland. Again, Ireland is a bit out of the way, and has sometimes been left out of the picture of cultural osmosis, but that doesn’t separate it from Europe and connect it to another region. As for these instruments, I’m unconvinced that they represent an influence from the Middle East on Ireland exclusively. Can you pinpoint the origin of these instruments? Perhaps they didn’t appear in any one place, and then transmitted to another region. Extensive shifting has taken place throughout Europe, and throughout Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. I doubt these instruments can be identified more with one region than another (e.g. with Ireland more than continental Europe, or with the Levant or North Africa than with Ireland).
7) Well, can you demonstrate that this singing style is exclusive to Ireland? Once again, modern Irish culture is somewhat more ancient than that of continental Europe due to its insular condition; so considering Ireland’s other connections with the continent, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to conclude that Irish and European musical traditions are similar in origin, and subsequently similar to that of the Middle East and North Africa due to proximity and contact.
8) All these superficial speculations are unconvincing, Dagmoon. And as for that structure, others also have origins that are “lost in time”. There are many places like that in Europe.
“Bealtaine [sic] (Baal’s Fire) is still celebrated in Ireland.”
So.
“Ireland is linked by language, music and culture to North Africa.”
Maybe so, but that doesn’t deny Ireland’s connections to Europe, and Europe’s connections to North Africa and the Middle East, and vise versa.
“The Irish need to take a long hard look at the facts and stop labelling [sic] themselves as Celts.”
It really pisses me off when someone declares that another group of people need to do a certain thing in regards to their identity. Why the Hell should your opinion about this be heeded, and why does it matter? The Irish have Celtic blood, because the Celts invaded their land and influenced it not only genetically but culturally as well. Yes, the people of Ireland have pre-Celtic roots as well, but you have no right to deny them their natural identity that is very much Celtic. Do Bolivians and Guatemalans need to stop identifying as “Hispanic”? Do Berbers, Egyptians, and the Lebanese (the Phoenicians) need to stop identifying as “Arabic”? No, because there’s a reason all these people, including the Irish, identify the way they do, and they don’t “need” to stop it. Ireland is very much a part of Europe, which has ties to its neighbors in the Middle East and North Africa. In this respect, there is a connection between Ireland and the Levant and North Africa, but the ties connect to all of Europe, not just Ireland, and the influence goes in all directions. So the Irish are European, specifically Celtic, with a link between North Africa and the Middle East to Europe connecting all these people in obvious ways.
Thanks Sceptic, for the feedback. As a sceptic, I’m sure you are not willing to accept the prevailing dogma at face value, but seek tangible proof, which is an excellent trait. I’m Irish myself, born and raised, and it has been a personal quest to find out where my people are originally from. I could go into the lies of current orthodox archaeology and emonstrate their unwillingness to discuss anything that does not fall into the Standard Accepted Model Of The Universe As We Know It, but I’ll stick to the facts, for you.
It has been proven genetically that the Irish as a people are not related to the peoples of continental Europe. This can be verified, as cited by Steve above. There’s one exception – the Basques of NW Spain – a people with an unidentified language and scientifically unknown origins. The Irish (and the Basques) are the remnants of something that was, a long time ago, perhaps all across Europe. But the genetics of Europe has become muddled over the ages – the Goths, Franks, Vandals, Greeks and Romans all invaded the continent of Europe. It was the fact that Ireland was an island, and that the Scots and Welsh were not easily invaded, that kept the gene pool of Ireland from becoming dilute. What they are now is pretty much what they were 5000 years ago.
Growing up in a land where are the archaeological treasures are attributed to the Celts (and looking back, how twisted was the story they sold us) left a lot to be desired regarding an explanation for the much older monuments of Ireland. I want to know who built them, for they are the first, the oldest, and the most technologically advanced peoples of Europe, or anywhere else.
Regarding the connection with Gaelic and European languages…your comment doesn’t hold water. European languages fall into 2 groups: Romance or Germanic (or a mix of the two). Romance and Germanic tongues have absolutely no relationship to Gaelic. The structure of the sentences, the rules of grammar and the roots of the words could not be more different. The connection between Old Hebrew and Old Irish has been pointed out and studied by General Charles Vallancy, George Rawlinson, Willian Borlaise, Cyrus Gordon and Sir John Rhys, to name but a few historians who note the connection. This is actual fact.
I honestly can’t pinpoint the origin of Ireland’s traditional musical instruments, but I can say there are no instruments traditional to continental Europe that are similar, yet there there are in North Africa. That is a fact worth exploring – no? As for the singing style – how shall I demonstrate – a song, perhaps :). Again – just pointing out an old tradition of Ireland not found in continental Europe, but found in North Africa.
I’m not out to convince anyone, just to warn people from holding on to that Eurocentric view that everything not Greek or Roman must be savage. Genetics is turning history upside down. My fine friends in St. Kitts celebrate St. Patrick’s Day every March 17, and it’s a big day there. But they are not Irish, most were brought in from Africa only a few hundred years ago. Culture travels and leaves its mark behind. Genetics leave a strong trail. Language leaves clues, and ancient people leave ancient monuments.
I’ll stick to my guns and say the Irish are not Celts. What we are, I suspect, lies in North Africa.
“It has been proven genetically that the Irish as a people are not related to the peoples of continental Europe.”
No it hasn’t. As “Steve” has revealed, 90% of Irish men are R1b carriers. Y-chromosome lineages are the best trackers of migration and relation due to their high mutation rate. R1b is the prevalent Y-haplogroup in Western Europe (pdf).
You’re right that the Irish and the Basques (as well as the Western British and other Iberians) are a somewhat more closely-knit clan, but that doesn’t mean that they’re “not related to the [other] peoples of continental Europe”.
“European languages fall into 2 groups: Romance or Germanic (or a mix of the two).”
No they don’t. Celtic languages are spoken only in Europe, are they not? So, therefore, by defintion, they’re European, as are the Baltic and Slavic languages, which aren’t a “mixture” of Romance or Germanic languages. There’s also Greek and Albanian; the Uralic languages Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian, Sami, Karelian, Komi, Nenets, Mari and Udmurt; and, of course, the isolate Basque language. The Tukic languages Turkish, Kalmyk, Tatar, Bashkir, Kazakh and Azerbaijani are also spoken by European natives; as are Ossetic, which is Iranian, and Maltese, which *is* a mixture, but of Italian and Arabic. Most languages of the Caucasian family, like Adyghe, Lak, Avar, and Georgian are also spoken only in Europe, and Armenian could be argued to be European too, depending on whether you consider Armenia to be a European nation or not. None of these languages are a mixture of Romance and Germanic languages, yet they’re still European languages, because they’re spoken in Europe, and their speakers have European ancestry, at least in part in the case of the more Eastern examples.
“Romance and Germanic tongues have absolutely no relationship to Gaelic.”
Yeah they do. They all Indo-European. I normally don’t reference Wikipedia, since any one can edit its articles, but I’ll link to it in this case.
Anyway, what I don’t understand is whether you’re attempting to define Irish identity according to Celtic/Indo-European identity or pre-Celtic identity. You’ve argued that the Irish aren’t “Celtic”, yet attempt to deny Ireland’s connection to the rest of Europe by arguing that the Celtic language is related to other European languages, and, thus, pseudo-logically, that the speakers of these different languages aren’t related.
“The connection between Old Hebrew and Old Irish has been pointed out and studied by General Charles Vallancy, George Rawlinson, Willian Borlaise, Cyrus Gordon and Sir John Rhys, to name but a few historians who note the connection. This is actual fact.”
Okay. Well I suppose that an influence or distant relationship isn’t absolutely impossible, but I find it difficult to believe that centuries of linguistic anthropolgy has missed this connection. I’ve read that one can come up with seeming similarities between *any* two languages in the world because those similarities are bound to occur. So, until I become an accomplished linguist and study it for myself, and the orthodox community accepts this connection, I’ll have to remain agnostic about.
“I honestly can’t pinpoint the origin of Ireland’s traditional musical instruments, but I can say there are no instruments traditional to continental Europe that are similar, yet there there are in North Africa.”
“Again – just pointing out an old tradition of Ireland not found in continental Europe, but found in North Africa.”
Well, let’s have a comparison of musical instruments and styles:
Ireland
Scotland
France
The Netherlands
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Scandinavia 1, Scandinavia 2, Scandinavia 3
This is the only example of North African music I could find.
Another interesting point to be made is that the Berbers are part European. At the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, when the Ice Cap over Europe receded, the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula repopulated Europe, as well as expanded downward into North Africa to contribute substantially to the gene pool of modern Berbers (pdf).
“I’ll stick to my guns and say the Irish are not Celts.”
Okay, then why argue that with evidence of Celtic language?
“What we are, I suspect, lies in North Africa.”
Genetic support? Cultural diffusion can happen between unrelated peoples, you know. Anyway, I think you’re wrong in trying to separate Ireland from the rest of Europe. A distant connection to North Africa (that’s shared with the rest of Europe), maybe; but a stronger one than that with Europe, huh-uh.
Okay, by mentioning the relation of Berbers to Europeans, I was trying to make the point that these musical instruments, styles and traditions may have a common origin in Ice-Age Iberia, or even before that. I typed that in my previous post, but it managed to disappear somehow.
“Also, these developments may prove interesting.”
Apparently it is believed that it is not a man-made pyramid
Bosnia “Pyramid” Is Not Human-Made, U.K. Expert Says
You know what to an extent this is all irrelevant. When it comes down to it I really couldnt careless what blood irish people have.
Sceptic eventhough you know alot, the thing about academic studies is that opinions always change and to be quite frank the deeper you look into any subject the more unclear it becomes. Eventhough academics may have strong opinions on certain issues im sure if they are honest the will say they cant be absolutely certain on anything.
Back in the real world we are quite intregrated here in the UK, if you work hard regardles of wether you are black or white you should be able to get what you want, regardles of who are ancestors were.
One thing that pisses me off is how black people are now trying to say how inferior white people are, when thats how white people used to treat blacks. You would have thought that some black people would have learnt not to become like their oppressors but they dont seemed to have picked up on that fact.
There was a time when it was fashionable to call white people devils and to an extent you can see why some black people would say this when you see the amount of destruction that Europeans have caused I know other races are not perfect but im sorry the Europeans get first prize. As I said before I am not biased I am of West African origin and sometimes I even pray to Thor..I love Norse culture and philosophy. Eventhough the Europeans have caused alot of destruction I have never believed that white people were devils. I have been watching a series by Terry Jones called the barbarians and it explains alot……
Eventhough I am partial to the Celts and love the Germanic people I have always considered them to be in some aspects kind of primitive after watching the program this was not the case. Terry jones explained how the celts were the major road builders in Europe before the Romans, they had buildings highier than 1 storey they were able to calculate dates on the calendar with amazing accuracy ( something like that I did not record the program but what they said was really impressive). In fact the Celts were more civilised than the Romans. In Roman society unwanted children where left out to die. In Celtic society old people, orphans and women had more rights than they did in Roman society. Then of course you have the druids who would spend 20 years in study before becoming a druid.
Basically the Romans went around destroying peoples civilizations, and they would also make excuses that the people they were invading were barbaric. Another reason why the Romans wanted to conquer the celts especially the Gauls is because they were loaded, the Romans wanted their gold (DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR).
The Romans tried to conquer everyones they did it with the celts, the north africans the dacians and the Persians. The Persians were another group that the Romans tried to conquer. The Perisans were very civilised but because of the constant attacks by the Roman Empire they became just as cruel as the Romans.
After the fall of the Roman Empire you get Christian Imperalism which started in Rome. The problem now is that you have to become Christian or die and basically the Vikings were forced eventually to become Christian.
So what you see is that Europeans went through similar things that that African people went through. The reason why Europeans were so keen to dominate and conquer is because the Romans succeeded in destroying alot of civilisations and the civilsations they destroyed became like the Romans.
Dont become like your enemy!
This is something that ought to be highlighted. The Romans annhilated a perfectly adequate
Gallic civilization. In turn they annhilated the British and their Druids. It took the Romans about 100 years to subjugate from Caesar in Gaul to Nero in Britain/ a related pair of peoples. If it took that long they were clearly organized enough to resist for a century. Organization and resistance for that length of time indicates a fairly robust organized culture. Also Caesar was widely considered to be a ‘war criminal’ for invading Gaul and destroying Gergovia and Alesia. ” They have created a wasteland and call it civilization” as a cheeky Roman historian put it in the mouth of a conquered Briton.
One more thing I am not into the Vikings beacuse I think they are superior to Africans I am just drawn to them.
I know who my ancestors are they are the Mandingos and Susu. I know the Mandingos had an empire and they were very rich. I am drawn more towards the Norse people but it pisses me off that there is not alot to read about them probably because the Europeans tried to destroy the records.