135 thoughts on “Black African Origin Of The Ancient Greeks (Parts 1 and 2) – Dr. Anu Mauro”

1. Again E1 and E2 are observed almost exclusively on the African continent BUT the third branch, the clade E3, what many Europeans, including Greeks, carrry is defined by MUTATION in Europe and west Asia. E3 is the only one that has been observed in Europe and in western Asia. This exactly what I just stated above, that E3 is more then likely a Neolithic mutation of the E haplogroup theorized from some 8000 years ago that originated from Africa. In human genetics, Haplogroup E3b is a Y-chromosome haplogroup with a distribution spreading from Africa around the Mediterranean into Europe and the Middle East. You know that little theory that scientists and anthropologists are teaching that humans expanded from Africa? This is what they are talking about, you have to understand human evolution first and not take out of context the research work.

   “A study by by Di Giacomo et al. found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A which is highly specific to West Africa, R1a, DE, and J2*(xDYS413= 18)J*(xJ2). R1* which probably gave rise to R1a is found in Northern Cameroon. DE is found principally among Nigerians and it is suspected that it originated from Nigeria. J is very prominent in East, and North Africa.”

   Once more lets put things into proper context, shall we.

   Firstly break down Haplogroup A:The oldest haplogroup, parent of all other haplogroups, is called L3 and is located in Africa where Homo sapiensis believed to have originated.  L3, also called Lara by the researcher Bryan Sykes (founder of Oxford Ancestors, one of the first companies to offer haplotyping to the public), is the founder of many African mtDNA lineages.  Roughly 70,000 to 80,000 years ago, L3 split into two founding lineages called M and N.  These two Super-Haplogroups are the ancestor of all non-African mtDNA(Greeks and most other Europeans, ME and Asians fall under M or N, hence the reason why these groups are labeled as non-African).

   Haplogroup A (mtDNA): is believed to have arisen in Asia some 60,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup N. Haplogroup A is found throughout modern Asia. Its subgroup A1 is found in northern and central Asia, while its subgroup A2 is found in Siberia and is also one of five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the others being B, C, D, and X. Refrences: Mitochondrial haplogroup skeleton, by Vincent Macaulay and Journal of Human Genetics

   Haplogroup A (Y-DNA): In human genetics, Haplogroup A (M91) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. Haplogroup A is localized to East Africa and Southern Africa and represents the oldest and most diverse of the human Y-chromosome haplogroups. It is believed to be the haplogroup corresponding to Y-chromosomal Adam.

   Haplogroup R is not an African originator. In human genetics, Haplogroup R is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup, a subgroup of haplogroup P, associated with the M207 mutation. It is believed to have occurred somewhere in Northwest Asia between 30,000 and 35,000 years ago, mainly represented in two lineages. Lineage R1a is thought to have originated in the Eurasian Steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas. It is associated with the Kurgan culture, known for the domestication of the horse (approximately 3000 B.C.E.). This lineage is currently found in central and western Asia, India, and Eastern Europe. Lineage R1b originated prior to the end of the last ice age where it was concentrated in refugia in southern Europe and Iberia and is the most common in European populations. It is especially common in the west of Ireland where it approaches 100% of the population. This haplogroup contains the Atlantic modal STR haplotype. One isolated clade (or clades) of Y chromosomes that appear to belong to Haplogroup R1b1* (P25) is found at high frequency among the native populations of northern Cameroon in west-central Africa, which is believed to reflect a prehistoric back-migration of an ancient proto-Eurasian population into Africa. Semino et al, The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Extant Europeans. (pdf) Science, V290:1155-1159, 2000. Semino et al, Ethiopians and Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the Human Y-Chromosome Phylogeny. (pdf) American Journal of Human Genetics, 70:265-268, 2002

   Haplogroup DE is the original YAP+ haplogroup[1]. Haplogroup DE* has been found at a very low frequency among the males of modern populations of Nigeria. A quick note on this paper: haplogroup D is a phylogenetic sibling of haplogroup E of Western Eurasia. The ancestral haplogroup DE is defined by the YAP+ Alu insertion with Eastern Ukrainians. Haplogroup D is not however found anywhere in East Asia except in Japan and Okinawa and may represent an important link between the West and the East. J Hum Genet. 2004 Mar 2 [Epub ahead of print] ; Tajima A et al. (notice DE is found in very low frequences in modern Nigerian populations meaning this is another mutation introduced into Africa after the pre-historic migrartion)

   Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F. The main current subgroups J1 and J2, which now account between them for almost all of the population of the haplogroup, are both believed to have arisen very early, at least 10,000 years ago.

   Haplogroup J (mtDNA) originated around 45,000 years before present when a mutation took place in the DNA of a woman who lived in the Anatolian-Caucasus region. Further mutations took place in the J line which can be identified as J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago), etc. Haplogroup J (along with ‘T’) is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago). All other West Eurasian-origin groups (H, V, U, K, W, I, X) were previously given to hunting and gathering. Average frequency of J Haplogroup as a whole is highest in the Near East (12%), followed by Europe (11%), Caucasus (8%) and North Africa (6%). Of the two main sub-groups, J1 takes up four-fifths of the total and is spread on the continent while J2 is more localised around the Mediterranean, notably in Turkey, Greece, Italy/Sardinia and Spain. A surprising presence of J2 (10%) amongst the Mansi of Ob river valleys indicates a Neolithic Phase expansion towards the Urals. – Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe, Lucia Simoni, 2000 ; Human Mitochondrial Haplogroup J in Europe and Near East, Piia Serk, 2004.

   The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is that usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as follows.
   P*(xR1a) R1a DE G2 I-M170 J2(DYS413= 18) J2*(xDYS413= 18) J*(xJ2) A Y*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P)
   12.8% 9.8 20.2 6.6 14.8% 20.2% 4.9% 2.7% 0.3 7.7%

   If you take notice from the chart that Di Giacomo et al. provided 27.8% of Greeks fall under the HgJ2 the genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker arisen 31,700 years ago from the Anatolian-Caucasus regionand of which is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup IJ is in turn derived from Haplogroup F (defining mutations M89, P14, and M213) the Y-chromosome haplogroupand its subclades contain more than 90% of the world’s extant male population, including almost everyone outside of Africa, Tibet, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Japan, Polynesia, and communities of indigenous Australians, while also including many men within those regions.

   “A newer study by Semino et al. examined two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which arose in Africa and which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78.”

   I like how you did not include what the REST of that study states, in other words altering the study completely from what the scientific evidence tells us. Such as the part that states less 1% of a non-Caucasoid haplogroup is found in both modern and ancient Greek populations, but before I do, do notice how only 2.4%(in other words only about 2% of the Greek population) belongs to the haplogroups E-M123. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. HgE-M78 that is found in 21.4% of Greeks is a Balkan mutation marker found in less frequencies outside the Balkan region and speaks of migrations from the Balkan region not the other way around. Here is what was left out from the paragraph above:

   Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture.

   “Haplogroup J is a signature for Black East Africa and its satellites cultures such as Yemen, Southern Arabia and India where Black Africans have been prominent since ancient times.”

   Nope wrong again. Genetic studies done by Semino et al, Al-Zahery et al , Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al and many other genecists reveal that the Haplogroup J originates in the Fertile Crescent as I broke it down for you above, not Africa. From there J is broken into two branches, J1 and J2. These two branches expanded out from the Fertile Crescent about 7000-9000 years ago. J2 expanded towards Europe as a result all European J’s belong to J2 with presence found in subgroups of India, Pakistan and Nepal. J1 expanded out from the Fertile Crescent towards the Middle East, Arabia, East and North Africa. The highest frequencies of J1 (J-M267) are seen in the Middle East, north Africa, and Ethiopia. As it is revealed in the study above by Semino et al only 2% of Greeks carry Haplogroup J1 (J-M267) and that is of ME origins, hardly the “high frequency of Black African origins” falsely stated by you.

   Bosch et al. [14] studied Y chromosome variation in the Balkans, including a sample of 41 Greeks. Greeks belonged to the major Caucasoid haplogroups. The identity of the K*(xP) chromosomes is not clear, but they could belong to the minor Caucasoid haplogroups K2 and L which have been previously observed in Greeks, or to other K-related lineages.
   E3b1 E3b3 G I J2 K*(xP) R1a1 R1b
   17.1 2.4 4.9 19.5 19.5 2.4 22.0 12.2

   Again all these haplogroups fall under Caucasoid haplogroups not African.
   Firasat et al. [15] tested 77 Greeks as part of a study of the purported Greek origins of certain ethnic groups of Pakistan. The breakdown of the observed haplogroups is given in the table below. One haplogroup H2 was observed, which is more typical of South Asian populations.
   E3b*(xE3b1,E3b3) E3b1 E3b3 F*(xG,H1,H2,I,J,K) G H2 I J1 J2 K*(xK2,L,NO,P) K2 R1*(xR1a1) R1a1
   1.3 16.9 2.6 1.3 9.1 1.3 19.5 1.3 15.6 1.3 2.6 11.7 1 5.6

   Martinez et al. [16] has studied a sample of 168 Greek men from Lasithi and Heraklion in Crete. No Sub-Saharan African influence was detected, and 2 Q chromosomes, which could conceivably be indicative of Asian influence were detected. The exact origin of these is uncertain, since no downstream markers were typed. Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 1,211 Greeks were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, one H2, one haplogroup A, and two haplogroup Q chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.58% possible non-Caucasoid contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool. Additionally, the latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%). According to Di Giacomo et al, Semino et al., Al-Zahery et al. the emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually little influence from non-Caucasoids since ancient times.
   Flores et al. [13] have compiled haplogroup and sub-haplogroup data from three of the afore-mentioned studies which included Greek samples [4, 9, 10]. The total sample size of this meta-analysis is 442. An error has resulted in the false inclusion of 0.2% frequency of haplogroup B which was not reported in the original sources (A.M. González, personal communication). The table of haplogroup frequencies reported in [13] is given below:
   A C E3b3 E3b1 F*(xG,H,I,J,K) G I J1 J2 K2 L R1*(xR1a1) R1a1
   0.2 1.3 2.0 18.6 3.4 5.9 13.6 2.5 24.5 1.1 1.1 15.4 10.2

   So in closing studies contacted by Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395 and Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet (to appear) with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Black Africa during ancient times is highly unlikely since studies reveal a less then ~2% of influence.

2. Andrea cuts and paste without understanding that he is undermining himself:
   Haplogroup A (Y-DNA):
   In human genetics, Haplogroup A (M91) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. Haplogroup A is localized to East Africa and Southern Africa and represents the oldest and most diverse of the human Y-chromosome haplogroups. It is believed to be the haplogroup corresponding to Y-chromosomal Adam.

   Jahdey responds:
   HgA Y chromosome is African. It was also observed in some Greek samples indicating the presence of a population which such profile lived in greece in ancient times. HgA indicates African men. End of argument.

   Andrea proclaims:
   Haplogroup R is not an African originator….One isolated clade (or clades) of Y chromosomes that appear to belong to Haplogroup R1b1* (P25) is found at high frequency among the native populations of northern Cameroon in west-central Africa, which is believed to reflect a prehistoric back-migration of an ancient proto-Eurasian population into Africa.

   Jahdey Responds:
   Well Andrea, all your rambling has shown you is that there are Black Africans with hgR1b1* a haplogroup which is related (subclade) to the so-called hgR. There is clear undeniable genetic kinship between all the R group. Do you follow my teachings? Then there is underived hgR* the probable ancestor of all the R haplogroup. Note the asterix on the underived R*. I cited sources for your enlightenment on the nature and origin of R*. But do some goggle it yourself, and you will find that R* is most probably African in origin according to the latest studies.

   Andrea rants:
   Haplogroup DE is the original YAP+ haplogroup[1]. Haplogroup DE* has been found at a very low frequency among the males of modern populations of Nigeria….(notice DE is found in very low frequences in modern Nigerian populations meaning this is another mutation introduced into Africa after the pre-historic migrartion)

   Jahdey Responds:
   But DE occurs in its highest frequency in Nigeria. If you know elsewhere DE is more prevalent do mention it.

   Andrea quotes the racist Dieneke’s site:
   If you take notice from the chart that Di Giacomo et al. provided 27.8% of Greeks fall under the HgJ2 the genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker arisen 31,700 years ago from the Anatolian-Caucasus regionand of which is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22).

   Jahdey responds:
   Says who? What J2 are you talking about? Do you know the Lembas of South Africa, a Black Bantu tribe? Well virtually all their men carry the J2 Cohen modal HG. The Amharas, the Oromos, the Masais, are mostly J2. In light of that fact and the admitted antiquity of Africa which gave birth to the world, where do you suppose those genes arose from?

   Andrea quotes the racist Dieneke’s site:
   Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area.

   Jahdey responds:
   Andrea go study some real book and get off Dieneke’s blog bullclap. Dieneke is not an authority on genetics. He is just one semi-illiterate white racialist blogger misconceving scientific studies. I cited numerous references on hgE. Go read some of it. Without doubt hgE3a and E3b are all signature African gene. Do a goggle search and see how many references on this you would come up with.

   Andrea:
   the Haplogroup J originates in the Fertile Crescent as I broke it down for you above, not Africa. From there J is broken into two branches, J1 and J2.

   Jahdey responds:
   If you used your faculties more discerningly, you would have realized that Black Africans also carry the hg J2 as the Lembas, the Oromos, and a host of other East African Black men. But J2 is not found in Northern Europeans. No sir. it is found in Africa, Arabia, Mediterrenean, India and Greece, demonstrating a common kinship. Suddenly, resorting back to outmoded uses of caucasiod, caucasian, caucaucau, etc, does not effectively turn a Black Ethiopian or South African into a Northern European. What you are failing to accept is that there are more Black”caucasiods” as the term is used, than their will ever be white caucasiods. It is not a scientific term. It was an imprecise term hitherto used to define physical attributes not genetic nor blood affinity.

   Jahdey continues:
   Andrea must have been flabaggerstered by the data on Benin Hbs because he suddenly ignores the implication. Since it does not agree with his fundamental racialist exclusivism, he has nothing more to say to counter it. Or maybe Dieneke’s website has no mis-information left for Andrea’s cut and paste games. Answer this argument. Why do Greeks of today have Benin Hbs gene? Does this gene indicate historical contacts between Africa and Greece around Pharonic period. Yes or no? of course the answer is a resounding Yes!

   Andrea also ignored the very testaments of the Greeks who spoke of their African connections, and African testaments which underline their inter-relatedness with the ancient Greek. he also ignored the subject of the main post which is an account of how the ancient Greeks view their ancestry as African.

   Andrea ignored all those points because he ran out of steam. He came to Rastalive wire believing that he was messing with fellow ignoramuses. Then he got burned by knowledge, and has buried his head in shame.

   This is Rastalivewire.com. InI don’t need to tell lies cause InI are royalty. We were the first monarchy and the real nobility. All others that came after are just frauds…seeking to misappropriate, or associate with what does not belong to them.

   The ancient Greeks respected and worshiped Black Kushitic God/Kings and Queens of yore like Osiris whom they called Dionysius, Neith whom they called Athena, Isis whom they called Diana, Hercules, Hero, whom they called Apollo and Imhotep whom they called Asclepius. Tell me how many Nordic heros and Gods the ancient Greeks worshipped.

   Myths of ancient Greece narrated by the ancient Greeks tell of their African origin. All original Africans are Black and Brown in colour. Any paler hue was a recent mutation, a late immigrant. Whether you call Black African features caucasiod or Africoid does not hide the fact that Africans are one race of people and no cheap divide and rule tactis can defeat scientific and cultural realities.

   People like Andrea must learn to humble themselves and not resort to spamming, cut and paste or trolling when they are overwhelmed by a higher source of knowledge. All you need to do is humble thyself…and perhaps you will learn the root of your origin.

   Jahdey

3. “Jahdey responds: HgA Y chromosome is African. It was also observed in some Greek samples indicating the presence of a population which such profile lived in greece in ancient times. HgA indicates African men. End of argument.”

   I suggest you learn how to understand studying Haplogroups because you sure are lacking knowledge in it.
   Let me explain it to you again: in that study that you quoted from Di Giacomo et al., [9] only ONE aka A SINGE haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is that usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. What that means is that Greek men are “African” is less then -.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. You brought up Di Giacomo’s study and now you are backing away when he contradicts you? How typical.

   “Jahdey Responds: Well Andrea, all your rambling has shown you is that there are Black Africans with hgR1b1* a haplogroup which is related (subclade) to the so-called hgR. There is clear undeniable genetic kinship between all the R group. Do you follow my teachings? Then there is underived hgR* the probable ancestor of all the R haplogroup. Note the asterix on the underived R*. I cited sources for your enlightenment on the nature and origin of R*. But do some goggle it yourself, and you will find that R* is most probably African in origin according to the latest studies.”

   Well Jahdey, the best source on genetics is Semino et al, but I seriously doubt you would know that given your lack of understanding of the subject matter. How interesting that you only focus in on the ONE isolated clade (or clades) of Y chromosomes that appear to belong to Haplogroup R1b1* (P25) found at high frequency among the native populations of northern Cameroon in west-central Africa, but that only shows that Haplogroup R is not an African originator but a Eurasian one from the Black Sea and the Caspian Seas, let me know if you need a map as to WHERE those are located, there fore your claim that Haplogroup R found in Greeks is through “black Africans” is false, given the HgR1 Lineage originator that is found in most Europeans is thought through Eurasia not Africa.

   “Jahdey Responds:
   But DE occurs in its highest frequency in Nigeria. If you know elsewhere DE is more prevalent do mention it.”

   Wrong. Haplogroup DE* has been found at a very low frequency among the males of modern populations of Nigeria. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency in Eastern Ukrainians and only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

   “Jahdey responds:
   Says who? What J2 are you talking about? Do you know the Lembas of South Africa, a Black Bantu tribe? Well virtually all their men carry the J2 Cohen modal HG. The Amharas, the Oromos, the Masais, are mostly J2. In light of that fact and the admitted antiquity of Africa which gave birth to the world, where do you suppose those genes arose from?”

   There is plenty scientific evidence that contradicts you.Haplogroup J2 is found frequently in Europe and in the Caucasus regions, it is not an African originated marker and its presents in Africa is through non-African peoples not the other way around. Scientists such as Semino et al. 2004, Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe, Lucia Simoni, 2000 , Al-Zahery et a, Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al, Human Mitochondrial Haplogroup J in Europe and Near East, Piia Serk, 2004 to name just a few anthropologists and genetics, conducted studies on the the H J marker state the following: Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Anatolian-Caucasus region What this means is that Genetic studies reveal that the Haplogroup J originates in the Fertile Crescent as it is broken down for you above, not Africa. From there J is broken into two branches, J1 and J2. These two branches expanded out from the Fertile Crescent about 7000-9000 years ago. J2 expanded towards Europe as a result all European J’s belong to J2 with presence found in subgroups of India, Pakistan and Nepal. J1 expanded out from the Fertile Crescent towards the Middle East, Arabia, East and North Africa. The highest frequencies of J1 (J-M267) are seen in the Middle East, north Africa, and Ethiopia. As it is revealed in the study above by Semino et al only 2% of Greeks carry Haplogroup J1 (J-M267) and that is of ME origins, hardly the “high frequency of Black African origins” falsely stated by you. Sources for this are many scientific studies conducted by Semino, Al-Zahery et a, Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al, Piia Serk.

   “Jahdey responds:
   Andrea go study some real book and get off Dieneke’s blog bullclap. Dieneke is not an authority on genetics. He is just one semi-illiterate white racialist blogger misconceving scientific studies. I cited numerous references on hgE. Go read some of it. Without doubt hgE3a and E3b are all signature African gene. Do a goggle search and see how many references on this you would come up with.”

   Jahdey unfortunately for you it is not Dieneke but Semino et al and Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet (to appear) who makes the statement and provides the break down of that chart. Both of whom you used by decided to ommitte their findings that contradict your views. How very telling. Wanna see the chart that Di Giacomo et al. provideds which prove what I am saying is correct? You know Di Giacomo et al is another same source that you provided as “proof” early that Greeks are “black Africans”. Unfortunately for you Di Giacomo et al contradicts you. Here you go the result from Di Giacomo et al. study once more and I will break it down for you again

   P*(xR1a)=12.8%; R1a=9.8; DE=20.2%; G2=6.6%; I-M170=14.8%; J2(DYS413= 18)=20.2%; J2*(xDYS413= 18)=4.9%; J*(xJ2)=2.7%; Y*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P)=7.7% and last;y here is what Di Giacomo gave as the % of Greeks who had the African Hgmarker A=0.3%. As I stated above that is less then -.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.

   Oh I’m sorry are we know to believe that Di Giacomo et al, Semino et al and Cruciani et al are all “racists” too because they contradict with science your theories?

   “Jahdey responds:
   If you used your faculties more discerningly, you would have realized that Black Africans also carry the hg J2 as the Lembas, the Oromos, and a host of other East African Black men. But J2 is not found in Northern Europeans. No sir. it is found in Africa, Arabia, Mediterrenean, India and Greece, demonstrating a common kinship. Suddenly, resorting back to outmoded uses of caucasiod, caucasian, caucaucau, etc, does not effectively turn a Black Ethiopian or South African into a Northern European. What you are failing to accept is that there are more Black”caucasiods” as the term is used, than their will ever be white caucasiods. It is not a scientific term. It was an imprecise term hitherto used to define physical attributes not genetic nor blood affinity.”

   If your faculties were more in cohesive you would have realized that hgJ1 shows that it was brought INTO Africa through the Anatolian-Caucasus region not the other way around. Haplogroup J2 is found frequently in Europe and in the Caucasus regions, it is not an African originated marker and scientists such as Semino et al. 2004, Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe, Lucia Simoni, 2000 , Al-Zahery et a, Cinnioglu et al, Paracchini et al, Human Mitochondrial Haplogroup J in Europe and Near East, Piia Serk, 2004 to name just a few anthropologists and genetics, conducted studies on the the H J marker contradict your theory regarding hgJ2. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) (previously known as HG9 or Eu9/Eu10) is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. It is defined by the 12f2.1 genetic marker, or the equivalent M304 marker. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Anatolian-Caucasus region (Semino et al. 2004). It is most closely related to Haplogroup I,(most commonly in Scandinavia, Sardinia, and the Slavic populations of the Western Balkans in southeastern Europe), as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22). Haplogroup J (mtDNA) originated around 45,000 years before present when a mutation took place in the J line which can be identified as J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago), etc. Haplogroup J (along with ‘T’) is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago). Average frequency of J Haplogroup as a whole is highest in the Near East (12%), followed by Europe (11%), Caucasus (8%) and North Africa (6%). I have yet to find a credible genecist to claim that Black Africans also carry the Haplogroup J2.

   Jahdey, I believe you need to learn the roots of your own origins and try to invent pseudo history based upon 18th and 19th century Eurocentrics. There is absolutely no evidence not in their art nor in their stories not in their depictions of themselves that shows ancient Greeks being “Black Africans” and trust me they did depict ‘black africans’ in their art but they never claimed them “Greek”, they were “foreigners” to them. They called Nubians and all sub-shara black africans “Aithiopia” Burnt-Faced Ones. Now if ancient Greeks were really “black Africans” in origins they would have applied this term for themselves as well but they don’t. All genetic test conducted between modern Greeks and those of ancient Greek skeleton remains from ancient burial grounds contradict your claims that ancient Greeks were “black africans”. They were not, they were caucasians, their art depictions them as such and so does the thousands upon thousands of artifacts and literature. In fact it is Di Giacomo et al. (2003) , the same source YOU used to show some supposed origins of “African Greeks” but instead he contradict your views, Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395 and Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet are the ones who conducted more refined versions of the Y chromosome phylogeny that indicate hardly any influences less then ~2% from the Black Africa during ancient times. Ancient Greeks never spoke of any “African origins”, you are really being misguided if you believe that. Ancient Greeks were one of the most Eurocentric and Hellenicetric civilizations to exist, they didn’t ‘admire’ black African culture in the sense some are claiming, heck if it wasn’t Hellenic they considered it to be barbaric and if you are not aware of that little fact then you are not familiar with ancient Greek civilization. Certainly the influence of Egyptian statuary on Archaic Greek kouroi is widely accepted, among Classicists as well as Egyptologists but the differences in their function and execution are so blantly obvious that it is ignorant to disregard it importance. In arguing for an Egyptian colonization of Greece people who hold your views disregard the extensive Egyptian textual tradition as well as the arguments of the scholars who have been investigating these questions for decades that such colonization has not been recorded. If such a coloniziation had taken place then ancient Egyptians such as Thutmose III would have left records and mentioned it in his annals that they conquered southern Europe and set up colonies there but not exist. Also the origin that Greeks and Romans swiped many of their culture and rituals from the Egyptians or black Africans comes mainly from an eighteenth century work of fiction called Sethos, a History or Biography, based on Unpublished Memoirs of Ancient Egyptby the Abbe Jean Terrason. Since Egyptian hieroglyphics couldn’t be read until Jean François Champollion deciphered the Rosetta Stone nearly a century after Terrason wrote his book, Terrason created a pseudo Egyptian religion based on rituals which he knew well: Greek and Roman rituals. So, the claim made by many who do not know better that Greek and Roman culture, ideology and relition were based on Egyptian or “African” rites is based on a book about a fictional Egyptian religion that was based on Greek and Roman rites. Its also funny that on the one hand you criticize Dieneke’s website but on the other you turn around and use the same sources he does, even though you omitted material because they contradict your theories, such as all those the nice tables of haplogroup frequencies reported in Di Giacomo et al, Semino et al and Cruciani et al books. I find it interesting that you actually believe you can contradict scientific evidence that was provided with pseudo theories and ideology.

4. Andrea

   My thesis was that;
   1. Africans and ancient Greeks were inter-related by Blood. We showed you genetic evidence.

   You admitted the presence of clear inter-connectedness on a genetic level by conceeding that there exist haplogroups (i.e. Blood relationship) shared in common between Greeks and Africans such as: Haplogroup A, Haplogroup J, and Haplogroup E3A and E3B. Your only issue was that hgA was found in small percentages, that E3 which (Underhill states as originating in Africa) did not gave birth to all its other clades like those found in Greece (which is highly illogical).

   The fact that you have been forced to admit all these facts of genetics without recognizing what you just did shows you up as a person with some literacy issues.

   Then the Benin Hbs genetic link between Greece and Africa which you have pointedly refused to address and disprove totally destroys your foolish rantings.

   Let me remind you that nordic Euros like yourself rarely carry the sickle cell gene, but southern Europeans like Italians, Greeks, Anatolians, Spaniards and Portugese all carry Benin Hbs genes which originated in Africa and reached southern Europe in historical times.

   Di Giacomo supports all I have just shown you. HG A is very rare gene by any standard. The last information I got stated that hgA has only been sequenced in 27 in the entire Africa which consists of nearly 800 million people. On this basis it was described as African. It is thus interesting to note that the same gene was also sequenced most recently in Greeks and English people. Its presence only demonstrates how intertwined and ancient the relationship between ancient Greece and Africa was.

   See http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/articles/pale-skinblack-genes-african-tribes-of-europe/

   Your analysis of hg J leaves me embarrased for you. If you observe carefully the name Eu9/10, you would see that the earlier researchers had thought that hg J was an exclusively European gene until more recent research showed that there existed the highest preponderance of hg J (the so called EU9/10) around the coastal ring of the Eriterian Sea (Red Sea) . In 2004 Seminole admitted that this gene must have come from the middle east.

   The “middle east” he talks about in that 2004 paper includes Ethiopia, Yemen, Eriteria, Sudan, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Somalia, etc. This so-called middle east as one can see then is more or less a pseudonym for Africa.

   According to Spencer a leading genetist in his book the Journey of Man at page 106 (I know you will respect Spencer Well’s authority):

   “…the Middle East has always been an extension of north-eastern Africa, to both the grazing animals and the humans that hunted them. This has been the case for millions of years…”

   So when next you hear middle east…think Africa!

   I could cite you 100 more authorities that support that proposition.

   Yemen is just across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. The Red Sea has never been a barrier between the two coasts since the coastal African people have long been sea faring (like the Phoenicians).

   The Greek and Roman writers (Herodotus, Strabo, Tacitus) acknowledge that there was an Ethiopia to the east (so called Middle East) and Ethiopia to the West. The Ethiopians (Black Skinned Africans) lived on both sides of the coast.

   The Yemenites, the Sabeans, the Ethiopian Amhara and Oromos are all one family. They are all black people, geographically, genetically and culturally continguous. See Encyclopedia Britannica. See also the Original Black African Arabs of Arabia series 1 – 4 for your elucidation. http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-original-black-african-arabs-of-arabia-part-3-black-african-kingdoms-of-arabia-ogu-eji-ofo-annu/

   Dieneke is not my intellectual match. He is fraud, just like yourself.

   Greeks have never considered themselves kins with nordic Europeans. But ancient Greeks spoke glowingly about Egypt. Yes, they lived in ancient Egypt too, and were more familiar with them than you will ever be. They told us Egyptians were Blacks like the Ethiopians. They told us that Greeks loved everything African that they even bowed to African gods. They went to school in Egypt and learned Maths, geometry, medicine and government.

   Solon the founder of Athens, was schooled by Egyptians. Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Alexander the Macedon, all went to the African fount of knowledge and they wrote about it.

   Ironically, those ancient men, would have considered Andrea and his Euroland-loving cohorts as wild, cannibal, barbarians, and even worse freaks. They may have been prejuidiced, but at least we see who was holding the bottom of the totem pole and who was sitting at the top in those days.

   Again chanting caucaucau like some magical mantra don’t cut any ice with me. There are more Black caucasiods in Africa, Arabia and India as the word is defined than there are nordic Europeans in Europe. And those southerners despite their clear kinship did not and still do not consider the nordic European as their kin. Yet, they all acknowledge a clear linkage to Africa.

   Today people like Andrea are desperately trying to pass off lies as history, so that they can ingritiate their disreputable ancestors with my ancestors from Egypt, Ethiopian and Yemen.

   What a pathetic show. What desperation. What a nerve.

   Ancient Greeks considered themselves kins with Africans…see Herodotus on History. See the subject article of this post. They never considered themselves kins with nordic Europeans. They said so. And population genetics proves this correct daily.

   Jahdey

5. Very wordy…,but still presumptuous,of course a majority of the said “greeks’ would find it in their favour to consider themselves non African origin if, to prove their genius in the”new” order of things”to come”.

6. Does all the Neo Egypto-fascination translate to “chickens coming home to roost”?

7. The only wrong presumptions being made is by people who believe in the fallacies of Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics teachings that ancient/modern Greeks were/are “African Black” or “Nordic Fair”, both ridiculously wrong theories. Trying to make ancient Greeks into either “African Blacks/”Nordic” when all ancient and modern evidence proves others just shows an INaccurate thinking mentality by people from those groups. A thinking mentality that is just as false as that wacky Greek “scholar” who claims the ancient American and Pacific islander languages are Greek based. Wacky ideas such as these spring up by pseudo scholars all the time, it does not mean they are true. Ancient and modern Greeks never considered themselves a kin to Africans nor to any Nordic populations. Ancient Greeks called people from both of those groups “barbaric and uncivilized”. Modern genetic studies as well as other evidence, both biological and cultural, backs the fact that they had no relations to either of those group of people, so trying to claim that myself being of “nordic” origins am trying to claim them as “part of my culture” is quite inaccurate since I don’t have a problem admitting Greeks are not a kin to me or any Nordic, but Greek are not a kin to Africans either. Genetic tests conducted so far clearly reveals ancient and modern Greeks never carry any of Hg found in either Black African or Nordic peoples. It has been proven by Semino et al 2004, Di Giacomo et al and many other anthropologists, scientists and geneticists that ancient and modern Greeks carry a genetic mutation Hg found in most Europeans within the Balkan region that is Caucasian based. This alpha (α) cluster Y chromosomes makes up almost the entirety of Balkan Y chromosome, they are almost entirely absent outside Europe and are found in moderate to low frequencies within other European peoples. Meaning the tests conducted by scientists proves that ancient and modern Greeks genetic wise were/are more closely a kin to their NEIGHBORS in the Balkan region then anyone else, be that either “Black” African or Nordic “White”.

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