146 thoughts on “Original West Africans Of Ancient Greece!!! The Black (First) Europeans III”

1. February 21, 2008
   Dave cries:
   “Corrections by David:

   For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated…” (Please, Provide citations.)

   Then in the next breath David reveals his complete ignorance by this conflicted admission:

   ……“Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (…..from eastern to northern Africa, … and from northern Africa to Europe respectively),

   … the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or POST-NEOLITHIC. ”

   CASE DONE!!! From the Horse’s mouth!!!

   REAL SCIENTISTS RESPOND:

   (1) According to the Arniaz study, …..Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. See Arnaiz-Villena A,et.al: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27

   (2) High-resolution Y-chromosome haplotyping and particular microsatellite associations reveal … an East Africa homeland for E-M78.Origin. See Ornella Semino, Chiara Magri, et al “Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area” http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15069642

   (3) A recent sampling of the Greek population comprised 36 Peloponnesian samples, 5 of which were J-M172(xM12) and 17 of which were E-M78 (R.K., unpublished data). In spite of the small Peloponnesian sample size, the high E-M78 frequency (47%) observed here is consistent with that (44%) independently found in the same region (Di Giacomo et al. 2003) for the YAP chromosomes harboring microsatellite haplotypes (A. Novelletto, personal communication) typical of Hg E-M78 (Cruciani et al. 2004).

2. Lies and more selective CUT & PASTING pseudo messages from Jahdey .

   David posts the WHOLE paragraph, which contradict’s Jahdey’s views on the subject matter once again:

   “Although E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively), the clinal frequency distribution of E-M78α within Europe testifies to important dispersal(s), most likely Neolithic or post-Neolithic. These took place from the Balkans, where the highest frequencies are observed, in all directions, as far as Iberia to the west and, most likely, also to Turkey to the southeast. Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East”. – Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022. Published online 2004 March 24.

   Let me put it in simple terms for you since you are having a hard time understanding what is written:

   “Thus, it appears that, in Europe, the overall frequency pattern of the haplogroup E-M78a, the most frequent E3b haplogroup in this region, is mostly contributed by a new molecular type that distinguishes it from the aboriginal E3b chromosomes from the Near East.” = What this means is the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin) in this case being aboriginal REGION that the E3B arose from. As stated before the E-M78α is not FOUND at all in the Horn of Africa and it is connection to East African is as distant as that of E-M81.

   Davids response regarding the fallacies of the Arniaz study, the “Horse’s mouth” who is full of Horse Manure:

   Arnazia research was funded by such biased mongrels as Soros and the nation of FYROMia, hardly credible or unbiased by anyone’s standards.
   Arnzia’s genetical study of the Greek genes is not valid at all and has been disproved by credible geneticists from around the world.

   “Three respected geneticists, Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Alberto Piazza and Neil Risch, argued that the scientific limitations of Villena’s methodology.[16] They stated that “Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.”, making specific allusion to the findings on Greeks (among others) as “anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.” No multiple-marker analysis has ever duplicated Arnaiz-Villena’s results. In The History and Geography of Human Genes (Princeton, 1994), Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza grouped Greeks with other European populations based on 120 loci (view MDS plot[17]). Then, Ayub et al. 2003[18] did the same thing using 182 loci (view dendrogram[19]).” Nature; MDS plot; Ayub et al. 2003

3. David Replied Feb 21, 2008 at 9:57 am:

   …E-M78β and E-M78γ show only modest levels of gene flow (from northern Africa to Europe and from eastern to northern Africa, respectively)…

   Jahdey Speaks:

   Modest or not, ancient African E-M78β and E-M78γ are present in Greece.

   This position is radically different from your over-hyped exuberance on Feb. 19, 2008 when you were so sure there were no ancient African genes in Greece. Now you are learning!

   Your quotations support me, your own typewriter agrees with me. Or maybe you cannot read what you are posting.

   Case done!

   Now I move on to Haplogorup DE.

   Dave whines:

   “The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.”

   Real Scientists REspond:

   …DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).

   You need to be shown pictures of the aboriginals of Arabia and Southeast Asia. They are known as the Negritos and Veddoids of Southern Arab and India, and the Andamanese of South Asia. Think the Australian aboriginals, think the New Guineans.

4. Once again one has to spell out everything since Jahdey can’t understand what he is reading. As before I will prove once more how wrong you are:

   E3b1 M78-alpha clade, which originated in the Balkans and is the most common e3b in all Europe, is one of the more distantly related as far as splitting from the African lineages. The divergence time (TD) (Zhivotovsky 2001) between the African and Near East lineages; and between the Near East and European lineages thousands of a Millennium, making any lineage between Africa and Europe even further part given the new moluclar types that arose in very different evolutionary histories, which is WHY the study clearly states that the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin i.e. Africa) in this case being different from aboriginal REGION(i.e. African) that the E3B arose in. If you believe there is any close lineages after over thousand millennium between the markers that arose in Africa and those that evolved through out the world, i.e. the Near East / Europe / Asia / etc., then I have a bridge to sell you in Brookline. The African connection to European, Asia, Middle East, etc. is a very distant and different genetic ones from their place of origin. To try and claim that none black African people around the world are “black Africans” NOW because Hg markers came out of Africa, is a slippery slope of genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. Ancient and modern Greeks and other none black African people around the world are genetically apart from black Africans. Period.

   Misguided Jahdey once more can’t comprehand:
   “Your quotations support me, your own typewriter agrees with me. Or maybe you cannot read what you are posting.”

   David’s response:
   No, my quotations debunk your views and prove you and them wrong. But I can see that you need a dictionary to understand what words like “NEW MOLECULAR TYPE”, “DISTINGUISHES”, “from the aboriginal region” mean.

   More misinformation by Jahdey
   “See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007). You need to be shown pictures of the aboriginals of Arabia and Southeast Asia. They are known as the Negritos and Veddoids of Southern Arab and India, and the Andamanese of South Asia. Think the Australian aboriginals, think the New Guineans.”

   As usual if Jahdey read the actual paper he would have realised the swiss cheese holes the research work has such as the fact that the authors totally ignore evidence from Australia, i.e. Mongo Man and Woman(common ancestors of all people alive today) , who’s genes don’t fit the one common “out-of-Africa ancestor” model. Given Mongo Man, a physically modern man living in Australia over 40,000 years ago does not share any of the African genetic markers that the ‘single common ancestor from one geographical location’ theory speaks of. Puts modern humans in that region of the world long before they’d left Africa.

   “What conclusive genetic evidence remains for the “southern route” hypothesis? If the Indian subcontinent had received migrants from this putative migration from Africa to the Sahul, it would be reasonable to expect at least some remote affinities between African, Indian, Australian, and/or Papua-New-Guinean (PNG) gene pools. Unfortunately, to date, most studies aimed at detecting traces of an ancient peopling of South Asia through the southern route have not compared the Indian data in a wider context, in particular with people (except Africans) from regions believed to have been involved in the “southern route” migration. Alu insertions data are interpreted as supporting an ancient African-PNG relationship, but India is not a part of this relationship (Stoneking et al. 1997). Y-chromosome and mtDNA data suggest a connection between the Indian subcontinent and Australia, which is, however, dated to <5,000 years (Redd and Stoneking 1999; Redd et al. 2002; Cordaux et al. 2003). Thangaraj et al. (2003) suggest a possible common origin for the inhabitants of the Andaman Islands and PNG, on the basis of high frequencies of mtDNA 16357C in these two areas only. However, we note that 16357C in Andamanese mtDNAs occurs on the background of 16223T and 16319A, corresponding to haplogroup M (Endicott et al. 2003; Thangaraj et al. 2003). In contrast, 16357C in PNG is associated with 16223C and 16319G (Hagelberg et al. 1999; Redd and Stoneking 1999), corresponding to haplogroup N. Consequently, the presence of 16357C in the Andaman Islands and PNG is most likely the result of parallel mutations and not a signature of shared ancestry. In addition, the putative original paternal lineage of Andaman islanders (i.e., Y haplogroup D) (Thangaraj et al. 2003) is not found in Melanesia or Australia (Kayser et al. 2003). Otherwise, mtDNA haplotypes in South Asian ethnic groups are most closely related to east Eurasians and do not show any particular ties to African or PNG populations (Kivisild et al. 2003; Cordaux et al. 2003). In addition, an mtDNA control region motif proposed by Forster et al. (2001) to represent a signature of an early migration from Africa to Sahul through the southern route is not found in South Asia (Cordaux et al. 2003). In summary, there is no convincing support to date for a Middle Paleolithic genetic contribution to South Asia by migrants from Africa to Sahul along the southern route. If so, and in light of the genetic and archeological evidence, the most reasonable scenario for the peopling of South Asia is an Upper Paleolithic event (i.e., the major expansion of modern humans out of Africa through the Levant [Lahr and Foley 1994]), from which the current Indian gene pool is derived. Proto-Eurasians subsequently evolved to their present distinct South Asian, East Asian, and European gene pools and expanded ~30,000 years ago (Forster et al. 2001). ” – Copyright © 2003 by The American Society of Human Genetics. All rights reserved.
   South Asia, the Andamanese, and the Genetic Evidence for an “Early” Human Dispersal out of Africa
   Richard Cordaux and Mark Stoneking. “

5. Now I move on to Haplogorup DE.

   Dave whines:
   “The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.”

   Real Scientists Respond:
   …DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).

   Jahdey Speaks: Lets talk about haplogroup E a little more to clear your befuddlement.

   David bitches:
   “WHY the study clearly states that the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin i.e. Africa) in this case being different from aboriginal REGION(i.e. African) that the E3B arose in.”

   Dave contradicts himself again:
   Dave whines:
   “The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E that SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

   JAHDEY SPEAKS:
   Again from the horse’s mouth, another inadvertent admission. Dave admits that Haplogroup E spread to Africa and Europe. Where in Europe???

   Is this Haplogroup E of yours that migrated to Europe and Africa evidence of blood connection or not???

   Goggle again for Origin of Haplogroup E to see where it comes from.

   Origin of E-M78? See: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=E-M78+origin&meta=

   Jahdey Speaks:

   Now you are learning more things just that your mind is too dull. Are you a drinker or something?

   E-M78 from BLACK Africa is the father of E-M78 alpha.

   E-M78 migrated into Europe, Greece to be certain. He gave birth to E-M78 alpha.

   Nordics like yourself are R1B or R1a. Nordics are not E-M78.

   E-M78 and his child E-M78 alpha represent Africa’s footprint in Greece.

   E-M78 probably came into Greece during the Neolithic (roughly 7,000 KYA) or possibly Post Neolithic which denotes a time line anywhere from 3 – 2 thousand years ago.

   You do not even understand the garbage you spew out Dave.

   Keep trying you will learn more good things on this site.

   Goggle for the relationship between E-M78 and E-M78 alpha.

   Case Done!!!

   Now we proceed to Haplogroup A:

   Real Scientists Speak:

   A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa….

6. More lies and wishful thinking by Jahdey:
   “A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa….”

   David once more corrects the garbage that Jahdey falsely believes gives him the right to claim Greeks, a Caucasian white people, as “black Africans”. Pathetic:
   Liar, I read Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 study on genetic markers in European populations, including the Greek ones, and only a SINGLE aka ONE haplogroup A (in other words ONE SUBJECT out of THREE HUNDRED AND NINTY-NINE GREEKS TESTED) was located out of over 400 Greek subjects tested; that doesn’t even equal to 1%. The remainder 399 Greek subjects ALL belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations, not black Africans.

   I’ve never met anyone who spread lies like you do when scientific evidence and historical facts proves you wrong. Not one study of Greeks by credible scientific researchers has ever shown that Greeks carry the West African Hg A marker. You are also wrong of when the clade first appeared in the European region, it wasn’t through some ‘direct black Africans’ connection, ignorant one, but Near Eastern populations who left and lived outside of African, i.e. climate changes etc., for thousands of Millennium; this is where we see one of the many clade mutantations from the one in Africa because it arose separate in the Near East; from the Near East the clade further mutant and arose separate once again from the already mutant clade which is why scientist claim the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE that is different from the one found in its place of origin and why the E3b1 M78-alpha is NOT found in black Africans.

   The divergence time (TD) (Zhivotovsky 2001) between the African and Near East lineages and then between the Near East and European lineages expanded at least ~30,000 years ago which makes the E3b1 M78-alpha clade, which originated in the Balkans and is the most common e3b in all Europe and not found in black Africans, one of the more far distantly related as far as splitting from the African lineages goes, given the new clade types that arose were in different evolutionary histories, which is WHY the study clearly states that the E-M78a that arose in Europe IS A NEW MOLECULAR TYPE(NEW as in A DIFFERENT ONE) THAT DISTINGUISHES(definition: being different or distinct) from the aboriginal(definition:relating to the indigenous/origin i.e. Africa) in this case being different from aboriginal REGION(i.e. African) that the E3B arose in.

   The “African” connection to European, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. is a very distant/different genetic one from its place of origin. To try and claim that none black African people around the world are “black Africans” NOW because clades came out of Africa, is a slippery slope of genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic. Everybody came out of Africa. There are significant and distinct stages in phenotype and genotype that lead to the different founding populations of the world since people left Africa. BUT ancient/modern Greeks and other none black African people around the world are not ‘black Africans’. They are genetically apart from black Africans. Greeks are closer related genetically to other Caucasian people including Nordics then they ever were to black Africans, delusional one.

   “Proto-Eurasians subsequently evolved to their present distinct South Asian, East Asian, and European gene pools and expanded ~30,000 years ago (Forster et al. 2001). ” – Copyright © 2003 by The American Society of Human Genetics. All rights reserved. South Asia, the Andamanese, and the Genetic Evidence for an “Early” Human Dispersal out of Africa Richard Cordaux and Mark Stoneking.

7. Now we proceed to Haplogroup A:

   Real Scientists Speak:
   A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa….

   Dave babbles:
   I read Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 study on genetic markers in European populations, including the Greek ones, and … haplogroup A ….. was located out of over 400 Greek subjects tested

   Jahdey Speaks: Thanks Dave. That is my point. Haplogroup A from Africa has been detected in Greeks. You as much admited that. Your only problem is ascertaining the percentage. But it is there in Greece..and contradicts your point that Greeks have no Genetic profiles from West Africa.

   Haplogroup DE.

   Dave whines:
   “The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D represents a great coastal migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia.”

   Real Scientists Respond:
   …DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….” See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,” Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).

   Jahdey Speaks: No answer or rebuttal from Dave. Are you stumped or something??? Common say something foolish and stupid to entertain me.

   Haplogroup E

   Dave contradicts himself again:

   Dave whines:
   “The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E that SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..”

   JAHDEY SPEAKS:
   Again from the horse’s mouth, another inadvertent admission. Dave admits that Haplogroup E spread to Africa and Europe. Where in Europe???

   Is this Haplogroup E of yours that migrated to Europe and Africa evidence of blood connection or not???
   Origin of E-M78? See: http://www.google.ca/search?hl…..#038;meta=

   Jahdey Speaks: Where is your arrogance and hubris now Sucker…I thought Greeks and Africans shared no blood relationship as you so arrogantly declared on Feb 19, 2008.

   We now proceed to Haplogroup K2. This gene again is found in Black Africans and amongst southern Europeans like Greeks, Spaniards, and Portugese.
   Jahdey Speaks: Any comment Dave???

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