Genetic Linkages Between West Africa and Ancient Greece:
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses.
The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers.
The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.).
2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable.
3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.
4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.
5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers.
6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
Authors:
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.
Tissue Antigens. 2002 Aug;60(2):111-21.
PMID: 12392505 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]
The Misinformation by Jahdey continues:
“A study by Di Giacomo et al. in 2003 found the following African haplogroups in Greeks: Haplogroup A … is highly specific to West Africa…. Thanks Dave. That is my point. Haplogroup A from Africa has been detected in Greeks. You as much admited that. Your only problem is ascertaining the percentage. But it is there in Greece..and contradicts your point that Greeks have no Genetic profiles from West Africa.”
David’s reply:
You are still wrong, Jahdey , as is your point of view. On the contrary Di Giacomo et al study proves your opinion on this matter to be dubious. The mere fact that the study is inconsistent with your fallacy that Greeks carry the Haplogroup A is very telling on what your agenda on this issue is. The Hg A maker was found in ONLY ONE test subject, hardly any evidence of much of anything never mind your dubious claim of “West African markers” in Greeks. In other words the study goes against your fallacies that Greeks carry the Haplogroup A. The Di Giacomo et al. study clearly shows Greeks don’t carry this maker and the study even goes on to show that finding just ONE among hundreds of Greek test subjects is an anomaly(that means its not part of the Greek gene pool at all) and can also be the result of a false positive.
More Misinformation by Jahdey:
“:…DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations….†See Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild, “Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations,†Annual Review of Genetics, Vol. 41: 539-564 (Volume publication date December 2007).”
David’s reply:
Its funny that you keep using Underhill as your source but don’t mention the fact that he clearly believes clades originating in African and spread throughout the world over thousands of millenniums, like the DE, are not evidence for black ancestry of none black African people though out the world. But then again no surprise there, spreading half truths and misinformation is your MO.
Psuedo postings by Jahdey:
“Again from the horse’s mouth, another inadvertent admission. Dave admits that Haplogroup E spread to Africa and Europe. Where in Europe???
Where is your arrogance and hubris now Sucker…I thought Greeks and Africans shared no blood relationship as you so arrogantly declared on Feb 19, 2008.”
David’s reply to the BS spread by Jahdey:
Nowhere did I or any of the scientists who research this topic ever make the claim that Greeks share any ‘black African blood’; that’s only in Afrocentric misguided fantasies. Clearly in the research work of genetics world wide it shows that the E3b1 is not an index for black ancestry. I know its hard for someone like you to understand but the E3b1-M78Alpha is not a black African clade; the M78 is not a single E3b1 lineage, they are just simply downstream markers.
More horse manure from Jahdey:
“We now proceed to Haplogroup K2. This gene again is found in Black Africans and amongst southern Europeans like Greeks, Spaniards, and Portugese.
Jahdey Speaks: Any comment Dave???”
Corrections by David once more:
Haplogroup K2 first appeared approximately 40,000 years ago in Iran or southern Central Asia. Your illogic reasoning regarding human evolution is beyond reasoning. All none black Africans might have a common ancestry originating from Africa BUT that does not mean they have black African genetic lineage, Southern Europeans included.
Dave crows:
Feb 19 6:33 pm
“For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated…”
3 days later, David throws in the towel and admits Greek’s African ancestry:
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm:
“The “African†connection to European, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. is a very distant/different genetic one from its place of origin.”
JAHDEY SPEAKS: Now we are admitting that there are some connections though “very distant” (what ever you are trying to babble)…
But from the David’s own mouth we also heard that:
1)”The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in Arabia and subsequently split into HAPLOGROUP E that SPREAD to EUROPE and AFRICA……..â€
2) “The “African†connection to European, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc. is a very distant/different genetic one from its place of origin.”
Thanks David. Case Closed.
David continues to retreat in fear and jabber incomprehensibly:
“To try and claim that none black African people around the world are “black Africans†NOW because clades came out of Africa, is a slippery slope of genetic evolution and goes against all scientific logic.”
JAHDEY SPEAKS: Noone made such a claim anywhere but you. Straw man’s fallacy. The claim was that genetic studies identified African blood connections with Greece which must have occurred in historical and pre-historical times. Re-read the main article again, David.
Besides David, I thought Greeks had no genetic relationship with Africans. See your comment on Feb 19, 2008.
Why are you changing your position now? What ever made you see light???
David surrenders:
Feb 21, 2008 at 3:41 pm:
“Everybody came out of Africa.”
JAHDEY SPEAKS: No David, people like yourself do not have any African ancestry. You did not come from Africa. You said so so on Feb. 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm. See your own comment.
Today, you shift the goal post. You want to claim African ancestry too. You are not from Africa.
There were many ancient Greeks who had African origin as proven by DNA and skeletal evidence. But you are neither Greek nor African. Don’t let me ever catch you try to sneak in a spurious claim of African origin. You too David?? LOL!!!
Go look for your origin in the caves of Europe.
Jahdey
Jahdey, you are a bubbling ignorant individual. No one admitted anything about your phantom “black African connection” other then to state the Greeks have the same amount of “connection” to Africa as every other none black African population does: not much and hardly anything to write home about. Nowhere did I or any of the scientists who research this topic ever make the claim that Greeks share any ‘black African blood’; that’s only in Afrocentric misguided fantasies. Clearly in the research work of genetics world wide it shows that the E3b1 is not an index for black ancestry, so your fallacy that it shows Greeks having some phantom “black African ancestry” connection is ludicrous given the the E3b1 M78-alpha is a Balkan origin clade, not black African.
More Horse Manure coming out of Jahdey’s mouth:
“But David, I thought Greeks had no genetic relationship with Africans. See your comment on Feb 19, 2008. Why are you changing your position now? No David, people like yourself do not have any African ancestry. You did not come from Africa. You said so so on Feb. 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm. See your own comment. Today, you shift the goal post. You are not from Africa”
Davids reply:
You thought right, they don’t have any genetic relationship with Africans. There ‘genetic relation’ is the same as any other none African people: in regards to the “Out of Africa” theory, after thousand of millenniums mutations and different historical variation consists of African and non-African elements and the separate mutations that arose in different geographical and phenotype there is hardly much of a “genetic relationship”. Nothing has changed my mind because I never stated Greeks have black African ancestry.That’s in Afrocentric misguided fantasies like yourself. Its not my fault you can’t comprehand human evolution.
More fallacies by Jahdey:
“There were many Greeks who had African origin as proven by DNA and skeletal evidence. But you are neither Greek nor African. Don’t let me ever catch you try to sneak in a spurious claim of African origin. You too David?? LOL!!! Go look for your origin in the caves of Europe”
David’s reply:
No there weren’t. There were hardly any Greeks who had African origins in the way you are dubiously claiming because the mutation that defines the E3b1 M78-alpha clade in Southern Europeans like the Greeks is absent in ‘black Africans’. Greeks and other Europeans do have an ancestral connection to people from the Near East but not ‘black Africans’. This has been proven to be true by DNA, skeletal remains, historical and scientific evidence that shows zero proof of your dubious claim.
Dave crows:
Feb 19 6:33 pm
“For one the Y Haplogroups found in Greeks are that of Caucasian genes, not of Sub-Saharan black Africans, as you so falsely stated…â€
After much discipling by Jahdey, Dave eats his own vomit!!
David rolls over:
“All none black Africans might have a common ancestry originating from Africa … Southern Europeans included.” February 21st, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Jahdey Speaks: Smart boy, smart boy. Good, you are learning fast!
Although you must remember, you David do not come from Africa. Your origin lies in some cave in Eurolandia! LOL!
Jahdey Speaks:
Now, more DNA classes for Dave:
1) . See A. Hajjej et al., “HLA genes in Southern Tunisians
(Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.” ”European
Journal of Medical Genetics” 2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present
study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This
suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans
probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred
in Sahara.”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7RKV-4FFN9D5-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a328c136bfba074b8a6ca730c0833a25
mtDNA Evidence:
2) An examination by a geneticist acquaintance reveals haplogroup M (East African
M1) in Greeks. Also found are one sub-Saharan L3e and one sub-Saharan M1 in
a sample of 90 Sicilians from Troina (n.=42) and Trapani (n.=48 ). In 69
Sardinians, there are one L1a and one L2a. In 48 Romans there are one L2a and
one L3b sequences. http://backintyme.com/admixture/richards01.pdf
http://onedroprule.org/viewtopic.php?t=1071
More Horse Manure from Jahdey:
“Smart boy, smart boy. Good, you are learning fast!”
Davids reply:
Obviously you don’t, given you have still to under the simple fact of human evolution.
More nonsense from Jahdey:
“Although you must remember, you David do not come from Africa. Your origin lies in some cave in Eurolandia! LOL!”
Davids reply:
Your illogical thinking is very comical; it show the agenda you have in turning none African black people like the Greeks who have no genetic connection to black Africans, into ‘black’. You are ridiculous. By that logic, neither did Greeks. LOL!!
More Horse Manure by Jahdey from a pseudo paper:
“1) Regarding Greece, another study has found sub-Saharan DNA in the modern Greek population. According to A. Hajjej et al., “HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.†â€European Journal of Medical Genetics†2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.—
David corrects ignorant Jahdey again:
This is not new, nor did you provide anything credible, its the same useless study copied from the Arnaiz study. They didn’t even do their own tests or research. This Tunisian fallacy that you posted did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. Their results were taken straight from that dubious Arnaiz-Villena paper. They only compare their results with the fallacies found in Arnaiz-Villena and thus repeated the same dubious conclusion.
And yet still more Horse Manure from Jahdey:
“mtDNA Evidence:
2) An examination by a geneticist acquaintance reveals haplogroup M (East African M1) in Greeks. Also found are one sub-Saharan L3e and one sub-Saharan M1 in a sample of 90 Sicilians from Troina (n.=42) and Trapani (n.=48 ). In 69 Sardinians, there are one L1a and one L2a. In 48 Romans there are one L2a and one L3b sequences. http://backintyme.com/admixture/richards01.pdf
http://onedroprule.org/viewtopic.php?t=1071
Davids reply:
Greeks don’t carry ‘black African’ mtDNA, Mr. Nimwit, if you read that paper instead of just posting certain segments from useless and misleading sites you would have realized the paper speaks about NEAR EASTERNERS being the distributors of mtDNA in most of Europe/Asia etc., including to Greeks, the “M” lineage the paper sites is due to EURASIAN lineage from CENTRAL and EASTERN Asian, NOT Africa. That is why the study is calls “Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool (2000)”, not sub-Sahara Africa. I suggest you actually read the research papers you keep posting because unlike what you falsely believe they don’t support your arguments.
“HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.†â€European Journal of Medical Genetics†2006 January – February 49(1):43-56, “This present study confirms the relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharan populations. This suggests that there was an admixture between the Greeks and Sub-Saharans probably during Pharaonic period or after natural catastrophes (dryness) occurred in Sahara.â€â€
David corrects ignorant Jahdey again:
This is not new, nor did you provide anything credible, its the same useless study copied from the Arnaiz study. They didn’t even do their own tests or research. This Tunisian fallacy that you posted did not analyze any Greek genetic material, nor did any unbiased laboratory contribute to their research. Their results were taken straight from that dubious Arnaiz-Villena paper. They only compare their results with the fallacies found in Arnaiz-Villena and thus repeated the same dubious conclusion.
JAHDEY SPEAKS: Cite a source for this statement. Post me a link to confirm your claims.
If you read the research paper you would have known they did not conduct their own study but just copied the fallacies found in the Arnaiz-Villena paper since he is their source.